Hello, Today we're talking about the history of double dutch in Black communities. I'm here today with [three] wonderful ladies… and I will have them introduce themselves.

Gayle Brock (GB): My name is...Gayle Brock, and I am the state representative of Ohio for the American Double Dutch League, and I have been involved in...double dutch in Cincinnati, Ohio. I started in 1989 as a local branch YMCA executive.

Cheryl Holt (CH): Good afternoon. My name is Cheryl Holt. I have been involved in double dutch since 1974. I can give you the very beginning history of how it all started, even though I didn't do it the first year because they came around to the different schools. So when it's time to discuss that, I'll delve into it more.

Gwendolyn Maristany (GM):  Hi Ian, I’m Gwen Maristany, retired Health and Physical Education teacher and one of the original founders of the American Double Dutch League. 

Great. And what area did you grow up in… doing double dutch?

CH: Um, I grew up in the Bronx and I was working in Harlem…  At that time everybody did double dutch out in the street, but that's not the reason why double dutch became a sport. It became a sport because at that time there were no activities for girls to get involved in. And… the same year that double dutch became a competitive sport, they started the Colgate Games, the track games. So that allowed two different areas for girls to be involved competitively.

What drew… you personally to double dutch?

CH: Okay. All right. In 1973, September 1973, that was my first year of teaching… So now in 1973, the two police detectives from the 32nd precinct in Harlem [David Walker & Ulysses Williams] wanted to begin a sport for girls, a competitive sport for girls. So what they did was they went around to the different junior high schools and intermediate schools in District 5. And I think my school was the first school they came to, but because the woman that had been there for years said that it was a low organizational game, we didn't get involved. They went to IS-10 where Gwen Maristany, and I'll let her explain who else worked with her at that time, but she is the one responsible for the competitive sport of double dutch being set up in the categories as gymnastics is. It's broken into three categories, which we all know: speed, compulsory, and the freestyle. Those were all set up by Gwendolyn Maristany…

She set up how the score sheet looked. She did…

Gwen Maristany (GM): No, I didn't. I didn't do all that by myself.

*laughter*

CH: I didn't say you did it by yourself, but I'm saying that you should get the credit for it because you were the one that was involved in it the first year, 1973. Now you want to explain?

GM: I wasn't the only one.

CH: Okay, explain who else was involved.

GM: Well… there was of course David Walker, there was… Ulysses Williams. There was myself. There was Sue Intoree and… let's see, and Jane Rosenblum and… Well, those we were the initial ones of that had sat down to do that work and help design… those sheets 

CH: You designed the whole sport, Gwen, be honest. You broke it  up into three categories.

GM: I'm trying to be as honest as I can and it is not me. I'm not taking all the credit.  I'm not… getting blamed for this. 

*laughter*

I'm sorry. There was a whole lot of people. I was one of them. So, you know, that's… the way it has to be. That's the way it was. I mean, it wasn't me. I was… one of the gym teachers that… was in the right place at the right time. And… we were able to sit down and you know I mean Mike… he had a lot of good ideas. Dave of course was a genius… behind this… the whole idea, the whole concept. We did have the gym teachers did play a fairly good…amount of input because…, of course we were in the field, and then but by the time I got to you, Cheryl, I mean, we sat down and we wrote the damn rule book at our gym. In our gym.I remember that. 

CH: Yes.

GM: And Yeah, we did. And I mean, we worked hard for that. We really did....you know and because you know you stayed on me,  “Let's do it. Let's do it.” …Every free moment that we had … we spent... researching other sports… looking at… the dance performances, looking at the gymnastics, what they did and how we could incorporate…  those concepts into what we did. So, I mean, it wasn't just…  one person. I'm the oldest person. I guess I'm the only one that's really left around that did it. Yes. But...I never was the only one though.

So… Gwen and Cheryl, you all were in the New York area? 

CH & GM: Yes.

What do you remember was going on in the city and… in Black culture in general around the time double dutch started taking off there?

GM: Well, I remember there was a whole lot of stuff going on for men, for boys…

CH: Right

GM:  We definitely...what's happening with the girls and… I mean, that was big because there was men– where you know the the males were doing everything. So the fact that we had something at the beginning, you know, which was really only for...or started out as only for girls was really important. So...what else was going on?...

CH: Colgate Games. That was our only thing for girls. And track. 

GM: Yeah, that's right. Colgate games. I was just getting ready to say track....and what else?...

CH: That was it. Those were only two sports. 

GM: I'm trying [to think] in terms of sports, but in terms of culture…?  I guess dance still to some extent, right? Yeah…  definitely dance… what else? 

CH: Back then at that time, African or ethnic dancing was very important and flourished in New York City, especially in Harlem, the area which we taught. Yeah.

And Gayle, what was going on in Cincinnati around the time that you started?

GB: Well, when I started, again, it was in 1989. I've been with the YMCA since I… graduated from the University of Cincinnati… in fact, even when I was in college, I worked for the YMCA and University of Cincinnati. I majored… in physical education. and I minored in dance at the college conservatory of music and I was also on the gymnastics team at the University of Cincinnati and so through my YMCA career as professional director… I was introduced to Double Dutch… when I was an executive director of a downtown YMCA… serving… not predominantly but 100%… Black young, youth. And that's when I learned about double dutch… being a competitive sport. And… that's when I began to work with YMCA's across the city of Cincinnati and developed the double dutch program. 

We called ourselves the Cincinnati Rope Twisters. And so, we began to have double dutch programs in all of the, Black YMCA's in Cincinnati and began to get… recognition and sponsorships and began to the Ohio  competitions, which were led by the then state director of Ohio, her name was Miss Marcine Early in Columbus, Ohio. And… so therefore my work with double dutch as a coach, as a performer, you know, as a director, I was very… familiar with body movement. And that's where my interest became keen…watching young people be able to advance themselves using… their physicality but also we emphasized just as the national organization did… character development, leadership development and… “Rope not Dope” and as many places the police department the Powell police department became very involved because they also… espoused to the concept of working with young people to help them find a bridge and other alternatives to drugs in their in the community.

Now, you all mentioned that there were gender differences in that they were doing this explicitly for girls for activity. Did you notice any type of class differences in double dutch participation or reception or styles or anything like that? Like, was it different based on where people lived, how much money they had, etc.?

CH: Not in the very beginning. There was… basically no difference… Okay. It started out in Manhattan, then it went to the Bronx, then it went to Brooklyn and Queens. And… that's how the  different boroughs had tournaments. And then we would have our world championship tournament at the end of the school year in June. And that's how it lasted for about five, no less than five years because then we were involved with Connecticut, New Jersey, and that's when it started to spread out to the different states. And that's how back in 1989 they started with Marcine Early and the state rep in Ohio. 

Yeah… Did you notice as you've traveled and as you've done it across the country that there are unique styles… in different places?

GB: Since I started the latest obviously in 1989 and really that my first… championship tournament was in the like  90, 91 and I did see some style differences. So for example, there were some teams… like Ohio teams did… excellent jobs in… rapid dance and movements. There were some teams like in Connecticut and and also in New York where their freestyle, their acrobatics… they were not slow, but they were very fine-tuned and very distinct. And there were some teams like in South Carolina that may have done a lot of clapping. There were some teams that were very sing song-y. As a matter of fact, in Ohio, uh, in Cincinnati, where where my teams were from, as a part of a teaching tool, our teams began to during the freestyle component, as Cheryl was talking about the three different events in double dutch– compulsory, speed, and freestyle– we began the practice of singing our freestyle, routines. number one, so the judges knew what… you were getting ready to do, making it easier for the judges to judge you. But also, as a team coming in, learning new, it helped our kids learn… better and follow along better with what they were doing. And then over the years, of course… when Cincinnati… teams… were no longer the newbies and began winning… the state and national tournaments.

What about you, Gwen? Did you notice any stylistic differences either within New York or across cities?

GM: Definitely the teams from Ohio, they added such a flavor of gymnastics which really I think was single single-handedly done by Gayle. I mean I she's such… I don't I don't want to say genius, but she really brought and still brings so much to the double judge experience through her gymnastics. And I think we all grew from that. But definitely the Ohio teams had… a different they all had distinct flavors. They all had one or two things that we could tell right away where they were from, where the… real not only gymnastics but the way they executed their gymnastics was was just to me… you know a little bit better than the other… than teams from different places. they had that experience and I think it came through with… Gayle's experience in her background in gymnastics. It made a difference and of course we had the teams that were from the north that… um we were rapid dancers. 

CH: Yes.

GM: Okay. and not necessarily to my to my liking expressing… or, not expressing but executing… what we had originally thought dance should be or dance or gymnastics should be. So the execution to me was much much more refined in places in the West… Even in the South I think so also, and I think… the teams in the in I think I think they all did pretty well on speed. And we had a lot of records that you know they all broke and everybody that was important but freestyle yes to answer your question it was definitely a distinct difference.

CH: Geographically. 

GM: Yes. Geographically.

One thing I'm interested in is how people spread and popularized double dutch. We talked about… some of the ways. What methods, like word of mouth, radio shows, newsletters, and you talked about the events… What other ways did people use to spread and popularize double dutch?

CH: At one point we… had our tournaments on ESPN and I think that's where we got our most coverage from during those years but then they… wanted us to pay a phenomenal amount of money that we couldn't afford. So we lost our popularity amongst all people dealing with competitive double dutch at that point. 

GM: Yeah… we kind of wanted to keep it more or less quote unquote a sport and I think… different organizations, ESPN one of them, they wanted… more a demonstration or a show. I know one thing, they wanted a stage and in the beginning we were like no we need a gym a gymnasium we need a platform that's more conducive to that you know as opposed to putting on a show. That was a big difference that we had… eventually, you know, I mean, double dutch wound up being on some stages, but we fought for that and that was a big… one of the big things that was a difference. We had, you know, struggled with that. 

GB: I'd like to… to add that… in my end being working for the YMCA… during that period I also became a national director for the YMCA and traveled… the country and in doing presentations as a leadership development consultant. I also had the blessing of being able to present double dutch… to some of the states like where I did programs for, like in California or Colorado. Unfortunately, the YMCA's didn't grasp hold to it more than just… as a competitive sport… but through that vehicle, I was able to help introduce… double dutch to places that had not heard of double dutch before as more than just something kids did jumping. And and also if you all remember… the… double dutch movie that Kiki Palmer and Corbin Bleu… were in some of our kids from Cincinnati were actually… competitors in the movie that Disney produced called… Jump in!, and then that was… also that of that movie helped introduce that Disney movie helped introduce double dutch… to people across the country. 

GM: Yes, it did. And also… we did… the kids did some commercials. 

GB: Yes. 

GM: McDonald's… you know and that just made it you know they saw it everywhere and oh what was that. 

GB: Right

GM: Also… the Girl Scouts and and whoever… whatever organizations like Gayle, you know, Gayle had her organizations. There was the… 4-H Club besides school, you know, besides the school there there were lots of… centers and stuff, parks and recs that, you know, we had contacts with that we went out… on our own and tried to solicit these, organizations… for help. And that was another way. Yeah. The commercials were big and ESPN– that helped… Yep, and helped really introduce it to places that was not really urban…

GB: And and on a negative point though…there was a double dutch reality show… I don't remember where it was based out of, but again that put double dutch into some people's eyes.

GM: Yeah… yeah, that was something… that an individual club was offered to do I guess and they did. 

CH: It was… reality…

GM: Right. But that was pretty later on though, right? Yeah, that was later on. 

CH: Was it 2000s?

GM:  I'm not sure. But it wasn't beginning, right? Yeah… they had already became quote unquote well known or famous and then you know oh let's do something else with it you know right but…

GB: Yeah and unfortunately that that reality show and the those… adults who led it did not give a positive impression or the American Double Dutch League's… impression or, they they did not lead with the composure and the messaging… that we wanted.

How do you all feel about double dutch moving to places and audiences outside of where it originated?

GM: Well, we always welcomed it. I mean, that was, you know, one of our goals. We wanted to make sure that, you know, that I mean… this was our dream so that it would get exposed to everyone. 

GB: Absolutely.

GM: Yeah…I mean anytime… we saw that someone had an interest, we tried to follow through…

Okay… I have three questions that I ask every guest. So I'm going to take it to the group and you all can answer as you see fit.  

First question, what songs got people on the dance floor when you were going out dancing at your peak?

CH: “Double Dutch Bus.” 

*laughter* 

Double Dutch bus? That's a little on the nose.

*laughter* 

What others?

CH: For double dutch?

Anything. Just… anything.

GM: For anything? So what did what did we do? 

CH: The beginning of when double dutch first became a competitive sport or talking about…? 

GM: Just generally us as individuals?

Just generally you as individuals: house parties, clubs, whatever.

GM: Oh, Listen.  Sow dance.  Right? That comes to mind right away that slow dancing…

*laughter*

CH: But okay. At the time in New York, we had the clubs, uh, Frankie Crocker. 

GM: Oh, yeah. 

CH: Studio 54, the Garage. I mean, it was so much to do. 

GM: But even before that, well, I'm thinking like when I first was dancing, what were we doing? I mean, what kind of…?

CH: Every week it was a different dance.

GB: And you're correct… I can't remember the name of the songs. 

GM: American Bandstand was on… I was looking at some of that that

CH: Soul Train.

GM: Right. Soul Train… There we go. 

GB: That I remember. Now, I came from a small town in Illinois… so I didn't have the club scene and all that other kind of stuff, but I remember doing the click clack. That was a dance back then to whatever music was playing. 

CH: I don’t know that one. 

*laughter* 

CH: Is that something like the mashed potato?

GB: Yeah. It's even wilder than that. A lot of spins and a lot of turns.

CH: I don’t know that one, Gayle.

*laughter*

GB: But I don't remember. I guess I'm  too old to remember the names of songs. Yeah. And like I said, I was not a club person.  I was too much trying to graduate from school.

Second question: what is a Black cultural work– It could be a song, movie, book, whatever– that's a classic but is underappreciated?

CH: the sport of double dutch.

Okay, that's a good answer.

CH: Everybody did double dutch at one point. That's the only thing that we did. The boys would play scullies and things like that and we had our ropes and we just jumped. 

GM: I agree with that. Yeah. What we grew up in the projects and… yeah, that that was… that was what was ours besides running. Okay. remember running, you know, but… the most important thing was that was ours and only ours. I mean, boys ran too, but… yeah, I would say double dutch…

What particular dish did your family make that you looked forward to the most?

GB:  Ah, my mother used to make paella with the Spanish you know seafood rice dish we and my family looks forward to that and roasted lamb that was a tradition in our in our household again coming from the country my mom roasted lamb…and I do it to this day

GM: Fried chicken over here, Fried chicken.

CH: My father used to make a dish with sauerkraut and… pork ribs… I don't eat pork anymore, but that was to die for, and we would look forward to that. And… he worked in Chinatown back in 1952, so he did a lot of Chinese dishes that he made for us.

Ladies, thank you so much for joining me. Um, is there anything you want to plug or anywhere people can find what you're doing right now?

CH: Okay… Jamal Turner, which is my son, is… one of the key people that you can… get in contact with double dutch and his number is (347)652-5654 if you want to get involved in double dutch. That's the person to speak to.